Narcissistic leadership is easy to admire and hard to survive. Only about 2% of people are narcissists, yet among CEOs the figure climbs to roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman, Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why that gap exists — and how to tell a visionary leader from a grandiose narcissist before the damage is done.
The narcissistic leadership paradox
Narcissists rise because we confuse their behaviour with vision. They are grandiose, overconfident and unafraid to dream at a scale most of us never attempt. That is genuinely useful. The problem is what comes attached: exploitation, a need for credit, and a thin skin behind the bravado.
Chatman’s research with Stanford’s Charles O’Reilly found the harm is delayed. Early on, a narcissistic CEO and their team look tightly bound. Over time, things separate — and one of the clearest signals is pay. The CEO’s compensation pulls away from the top team’s, because the narcissist believes the success was theirs alone. In healthier firms, the opposite happens: the gap narrows.
Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists
Two forces drive that number. First, narcissists actively seek visible, high-exposure positions of power. Second, the rest of us reward the performance. Boards, in particular, struggle to separate the visionary from the narcissist because, as Chatman puts it, the two overlap on a Venn diagram.
There is also a scale to it. Jeffrey Kluger’s observation captures the nuance: a little narcissism can help in many roles, but a lot of it is a problem in almost all of them. In a genuine crisis you may want a risk-tolerant leader who takes charge — but Chatman argues you can have that confidence without the exploitation that defines real narcissism.
The one question that exposes a narcissist
Chatman’s favourite test is disarmingly simple: who did you bring along with you? A visionary develops people and keeps them. A narcissist leaves few real allies and a lot of variation in their relationships over time.
Her example is pointed, because this episode follows directly from our two-part series with Geoffrey Cain on Steve Jobs in exile. By the end of his career, Jobs had a stable team of 13 senior leaders who had stayed with him for 13 years. Whatever he was earlier, he learned to modify his behaviour — and that consistency is exactly what you look for.
The hidden cost to culture
The danger of narcissistic leadership is not only personal; it is cultural. Companies run by narcissists score lower on ethics and lower on collaboration. The leader doesn’t just cross ethical lines — they encourage the whole organisation to. They also discourage colleagues from bonding with each other, because connection between peers is a threat to a leader who wants all allegiance pointed upward.
Worse, the effect is sticky. Chatman found a residual cultural cost that lingers long after the narcissist has gone. Their risk profile compounds the problem: more lawsuits, often as plaintiff, with no greater chance of winning — just an unshakeable certainty that they are right.
How to protect yourself
If you can leave a narcissistic boss, seriously consider it. If you can’t, shield yourself. Gain their trust, manage upward, and become the person who solves the thing they most fear — so they stop watching you. As a manager of narcissists, expect them to take credit and assign blame, and account for it by deliberately crediting everyone else. One more practical move from Chatman’s recent work with Juliana Schroeder: narcissists thrive alongside other narcissists but deflate everyone else, so group them together rather than scattering them through your healthier teams.
The reassuring maths: 16% is still a minority. There is a whole world of confident, non-narcissistic leaders who bring people with them — and that, in the end, is the tell.
Listen or watch:
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[Internal link: related episode — the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile (NeXT/Pixar years)]
[Outbound link: Jennifer Chatman’s website and book — jenniferachatman.com]
About the Host
Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, a keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley).
Links: theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen · admin@theinnovationshow.io
About the Author
Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer.
With Stanford’s Charles O’Reilly she wrote the widely cited article “Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions,” and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026).
Link: jenniferachatman.com
Frequently Asked Questions
What percentage of CEOs are narcissists?
According to Jennifer Chatman, narcissism runs at about 2% in the general population but roughly 16% among CEOs. Narcissists actively seek out visible positions of power, and observers often mistake their behaviour for visionary leadership — so a disproportionate number reach the top.
How do you tell a visionary leader from a narcissist?
Chatman’s sharpest test is one question: “Who did you bring along with you?” A visionary develops people and keeps a stable team over many years. A narcissist leaves few lasting allies and a pattern of broken relationships. The two profiles overlap, so this evidence-based question is how boards and hiring committees separate them.
What is the dark triad in leadership?
The dark triad is the combination of narcissism, psychopathy (sociopathy) and Machiavellianism. Chatman explains that the grandiose, exploitative form of narcissism most associated with leadership often travels with the other two — producing leaders who seek power, exploit others and cross ethical boundaries.
How does narcissistic leadership damage organisational culture?
Companies led by narcissists tend to score lower on ethics and lower on collaboration. The leader encourages the whole organisation to cut ethical corners and discourages peers from bonding with each other, since connection between colleagues threatens a leader who wants all allegiance directed upward. The effect is “sticky” — it lingers even after the leader departs.
How do you deal with a narcissistic boss?
If you can leave, consider it. If you can’t, shield yourself: gain their trust, manage upward, and become the person who resolves their biggest worry so they stop micromanaging you. Where you manage narcissists, expect them to claim credit and shift blame, and deliberately credit your other people to compensate. Chatman also notes narcissists work better grouped together than mixed in with more humble colleagues.
What is Jennifer Chatman’s book about?
Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (with Glenn Carroll, Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026) draws on 20 years of research to debunk common myths about organisational culture — showing that culture is measurable, manageable, affects the bottom line, and can be deliberately leveraged for strategic success.